Solves the problem of changing gullet sizes entirely. As for pressure points.... what pressure points??? The whole thing is flexible and soft, and the sheepskin pad underneath makes it ultra comfy for my horse. I just completed a 40km ride in it scoring an "A" for our physical which included testing for soreness along the back.

The website is www.horse-connection.com.au I think...

Seriously, for short backed horses like mine or difficult to fit horses there is nothing better than the comfort of a treeless saddle! I'm trying to convince our HL store to get some in!

I can't stand idiots who suggest you use a foam or sheepskin pad under a saddle which is already too tight!!!

I'll second That one!!!

If the saddle is too low get it refitted! Don't just pack more padding in till you thinks its okay... The saddle is still the same shape! It'll compact the padding against the spin and cause more discomfort than before! So whats the point?

I had a wonderful experience with the brighton saddleworld fitter tony (is that who you were alluding to sav?) who brought a whole load of second hand saddles and we were delighted with the one we ended up with.

He was great for options, I tried 2 or 3 saddles before deciding on the bates Caprilli - but man did he get the sizing wrong. I got the white patch on the wither to prove it!

And worse was he just couldn't seem to admit "Hey wow that really is is 3 sizes too big." he just kept on saying that the gullet was fine it was the padding. In the end both gullet and padding were totally screwed up. Even I could see the white gullet was too wide for my horse. When you held the gullet on its own over her wither it hit the wither before it touched her back - der!

The guy at HL who I got to refit the saddle said he had never seen such a bad stuffing job in his life! He got me to feel down the inside of the saddle and all I could feel was lumpy-ness and in some places there was virtually no padding at all while in other areas around the shoulder it was hard as concrete.

Thats just my one experience with him... can't say I've been inclined to buy from him again after THAT!

And I ride treeless now anyway

It is unrealistic to think you can shape a particular saddle to fit a particular horse perfectly. This would mean you have to buy a new saddle every time you change horses!

The horses know much more than the saddle fitters - just get on and let your horse tell you!

As for putting a numnah or other pad in, a well fitted saddle does not require any saddle pad (though I do use a thin cotton with my KN). To me, Bates are the Nike of the athletic shoe world....lots of gimmicks, very little substance.

This is what I like about the try before you buy that a lot of the HL dealers are doing, and it's about time!

Nox

Now of course a Bates adjustable gullet isn't going to be as good as a custom made saddle created just for your horse. But it does offer an alternative to buying 5 different saddles for 5 different horses.

It would be naive to think that Bates saddles would fit ALL types of horses. Some horses are going to have backs that are too short, or to curved, or too high a wither or whatever to fit into that brand of saddle. Its like jeans... not everyone is going to suit one brand of jeans - that's why we have many brands of jeans to cater for the differences in shape. Same with saddles. Investigate different brands of saddles and don't get stuck on one brand type if it's not suitable for your horse.

My Anglo for example does not suit the Bates Caprilli that fitted my TB so perfectly because her back is far too short and the cantel of the saddle rests on vertabrae that are not supported by the ribs. This = very bad for horsie's back!

To solve this problem I decided to go treeless. It also had a base specifically for Arab types with short backs, as well as a seat that would acoomodate my long legs.

You will find that each brand of saddle has a set of features that will make it suitable of unsuitable for you and your horse. Demo as many as you can as sometimes the saddle that is the best fit for your horse won't suit you and vice versa.

Its a trial and error process and I strongly advise anyone to ride in as many saddles as possible before deciding on one. Most places will offer 7 day return policy which gives you a week to ride in the saddle and determine its suitability - provided it is returned in its original condition of course!!

Like anything you get good ones and bad ones.

Unfortunately HL really push Bates as Mr Bates is a part owner of Weatherbeeta who own the the HL franchise. There are so many better made saddles than the Bates on the market. The Bates saddle are now ALL made in Vietnam, and mass produced to fill the American market that Weatherbeeta went into a few years ago.

The only really qualified saddle fitters I know of Graeme and Tracy Aitken of Aitkens Saddlery, who both went and qualified in the UK. They spent months over there and were not guaranteed a pass even though they paid to do the course. In fact quite a number of people fail the course as saddle fitters.

HL do a one day course, UUMMMM! I wonder just how much they learn in a day.

We have one horse who we had measured up for a custom-made dressage saddle. The actual saddler didn't do it himself (in another state) but had someone contracted to do it. The saddle never ever came close to fitting the intended horse, but luckily he was being moved on, and it fitted his replacement beautifully.

Another time we bought a jumping saddle with an adjustable gullet, and had it widened, and widened and widened. It still didn't fit the intended horse (big shoulders, high wither, broad back, a little high behind, hence bridging). Strangely enough, this horse fits virtually any old Bates jumping saddle that you put on him.

But saddle fitting is not brain surgery! The saddle should sit level (which does not automatically mean that the cantle is the same height as the pommel) and the deepest part should be in the middle. The hardest forward part of the saddle (which equates to the front of the stirrup bars) should not interfere with the scapula. And all the areas of padded panelling should come in contact with the horse evenly.

Maybe trust yourselves to fit your own saddles! Just don't compromise with fit!

I love my old caprilli jump saddle - changeable by saddler

and my caprilli dressage 6 months old.

And the changeable gullets are great, ok they won't fit all horses, but after 2 years of looking for a well fitting dressage saddle for horse and rider it is awesome. My mare is really sensitive, and she goes great in it, because it fits her well she has bulked up heaps over her shoulders, and it doesn't dip in like it used to (muscle wastage) i have had to go up from the med narrow to medium as well!
Her way of going has improved heaps, i even did my B on her recently (at 21 lol) having got an uneducated TB 1 1/2 years previous, off the track and not done much for 2 years before. The improvement has been huge in the last 6 months with te new saddle.

I suppose an independant saddle fitter with real quals would be best i suppose.
My OHs dad did the day course for saddle fitting through bates, but doesn't do saddle fitting.

Funny how wrong you are.

HL Saddle fitting courses are a very extensive three day course, which not only run in the classroom but also on the practical side aswell. Every year there courses are run and not all but most saddle fitters attend to upgrade there skills. The serious saddle fitters attend anyway. Having completed this course myself I can first hand vow for how good they are. Even though the particular course itself goes for 3 days, the theory part takes about 2 months.

The reason I became a fitter in the first place was because of poor advise several times from Graeme Aitken. I moved to WA and started with HL and progressed from there.

While there are probably finer built saddles on the market, The Bates/ Wintec brand are the most heavily tested and always are improving to meet the demand of the rider and horse. They are the innovators and not the immitators. It is true though, that not all Bates saddles fit all horses, therefore the great saddle fitters will not sell you a Bates if they think it will not work. HL dont, just stock Bates, and Dont just push you towards them. If they do there are other HL stores around.

The experience by some at HL stores is something that is dissapointing, I no longer work for HL or saddle fit but still keep in touch with a few who do.

i just wanted to let people know that the uneduacted few who like to put HL and Ron Bates down do not know the full story and are trying to fill there own void. There is a saddle out there for everyone and a fitter and it is not nessesarily a Bates, but at least they offer an awesome alternative and a truelly universal saddle which can be used from one horse to another with some very small and simple changes.

http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/cgi-bin/tve/displaynewsitem.pl?20070515saddlefitrebuild.txt

Regards.

i've had one incident with a horseland saddle fitter which resulted in my horse bucking, but i got my horse refitted by a different horseland saddlefitter and haven't looked back, he does a pretty good job is very helpful. that said, if my horse was very difficult to fit, i may get peter o'brian out. however, so far, i've been pretty happy with said HL man. if i think there is a problem, i ring up and say such and such is happening and he comes out and adjusts the saddle. he has fitted by horse 3 or 4 times now, different saddles, horse has changed shape, and he always measures her gullet size and makes sure the saddle isn't bridging, lifting at the back etc.

he is also not just a businessman with a bank account, he has ridden all his life, been a breaker and farrier.

so mostly good HL experiences here! by the way, when i was looking for a dressage saddle, i didn't have bates pushed on me, i was also shown keiffers and different brands, but was the most comfortable in the isabell

www.voltairepeformancehorses.page.tl